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"Nightpeople"
47 authors.
Episode 20
Cast...........In order of appearance.
(1) Richard..
(20) Carole..Episode 20
(50) Brenda...." "
Narrator
Richard
It's nighttime. a few weeks later. I'm back at the diner and sitting at the counter. I order a burger, fries and a coke. After awhile the sever returns with my order. I eat. Someone sits down beside me.
(49) CAROLE; "You gonna finish those fries?"
It's happening again. The same girl. I look up and push the fries over to her. Again, she crams them in her mouth with both hands, gets up and leaves.The server returns.
SERVER: "That girl just used both hands to stuff fries in her mouth."
ME; "Yeah, I know. Whenever she sees me with fries she comes in and asks me for them. And I give them to her. That's how she eats fries."
SERVER: "Maybe she's Spastic? Do you think?"
ME; "She's found Bizzarro World and a little happiness. It's not so competitive in Bizzarro World. "
She smiles a little.
SERVER; "No. Not in Bizzarro World."
She leaves to wait on a customer.
Later, same night I'm still at the counter. Someone, I never met before, enters the diner, walks over and sits down next to me.
ME: "Hello."
BRENDA: "Hello," She smiles. "I'm Brenda."
ME: "Okay. I'm Richard. I've been talking to people for hours. What have you been doing?"
BRENDA: "Well, it's been one crazy day, and I'm glad to finally be sitting down. I'm working desperately to help my sister get her kids back from her abusive husband, but his religion is powerful and he has formidable lawyers."
ME: "Wow. That sounds awful. What kind of religious belief does he have?"
A server comes over. Brenda orders a coffee. The server pours it and leaves.
BRENDA: "He's part of a fundamentalist polygamist cult. She had escaped with her kids, but he has them now and, with the church's help, is keeping them hidden from her. It's a long story, but hopefully one with a happy ending."
me; "I wouldn't count on a happy ending. We live in a really sick world."
BRENDA: "I hate to have to agree with you, but judging by how things have gone so far, you're probably right. We do live in a sick world - and this cult takes sick to a whole new level."
ME: "Why did she ever marry anyone like that? Your sister has some problems too."
BRENDA: "She, well both of us, were born into it. It wasn't a matter of her choice. All marriages are assigned, and hers was truly a marriage forced against her will. There are many others in the same situation. Luckily, I was able to escape with my husband and kids. She wasn't so lucky."
She pauses for a moment.
"Well, here I go rattling on. I haven't given you a chance to speak! So, you've been here talking to people? I find people so fascinating, I'll bet you've met some interesting ones?"
ME" "I have. There's this girl that always knows when I order fries. I don't know how she does that. She isn't in the diner when I order but after I get them she comes in and asks me for them. She always says the same thing: 'You gonna finish those fries?' I give them to her. Then she crams them in her mouth, with both hands, gets up and leaves. It's really weird. She never says anything except: 'You gonna finish those fries?'"
BRENDA: "Some kind of freaky fry psychic, huh? I have found people watching to be quite an interesting pastime. I like to imagine what their lives are like, but I'm usually not very good at starting conversation."
ME: "Oh, sure. I'm not either"
BRENDA: "I know it doesn't seem like it, but I really do struggle to make small talk with strangers - usually. For some reason you were easy to talk to today. Maybe it's the stress, maybe it's the keen remembrance of the isolated life I used to live that compelled me to open up. You probably get that a lot though."
ME: "When did you escape from the polygamists?"
BRENDA: "Three years ago. But unfortunately most of my family are still there."
ME; "How do they hold people? Can't you just walk away if you want to?"
BRENDA: "For most people, they don't physically hold you there, it's a matter of mind control through fear of God and damnation. They very effectively train your thought processes so that you keep yourself from leaving. Coming to the realization that they only had as much power as I gave them is what finally broke the spell for me, but even then it wasn't easy to actually leave."
ME: "God doesn't exist. I have no idea how anyone can possibly believe he does. By what route of convoluted thinking could someone find Him? No one's ever seen Him. So how can people believe? Where do they go, in their mind, to do that?"
BRENDA: "Oh, don't worry! I couldn't agree with you more, I was brainwashed. Yet now it's so easy to see through the lies. Sometimes I look back at my life and can hardly believe it wasn't all just a horrible dream."
"My newfound freedom has motivated me to go to college and study law, I want to do something to change things for the better. I figure "better late than never."
ME: "Good. Do you remember anything about brainwashing?"
ME: "How does it wotk? I was raised a Catholic but I don't remember anything people said about it. When I was 13 I stopped believing in God. My parents continued to make me go to Church. I couldn't say 'No.' They would have put me in a Juvenile Detention Center. My parents divorced when I was 16. I told my mother I was through with church. How could you believe for so many years? Did people, in some way, force you to believe?"
ME: "Yeah, that sounds rough. What's 'eternal exaltation?' I have some interest in a cheeseburger but none at all in 'eternal exaltation.'"
BREND: "Absolutely! Forty years of indoctrination tends to leave an impression. I don't suppose it's a lot different than any religious beliefs, except taken to the extreme."
ME: "How does it wotk? I was raised a Catholic but I don't remember anything people said about it. When I was 13 I stopped believing in God. My parents continued to make me go to Church. I couldn't say 'No.' They would have put me in a Juvenile Detention Center. My parents divorced when I was 16. I told my mother I was through with church. How could you believe for so many years? Did people, in some way, force you to believe?"
BRENDA: "One thing they do is teach you that any association with those outside the church group is a sin. They forbid movies, television, music, and outside books - you're taught that they are evil. The most powerful tool they use is peer pressure. Everyone you know is following the same beliefs, they encourage reporting other people's "sins," and they appeal to pride by teaching that "we are God's chosen." When you're isolated from real knowledge, fearful of the "wicked" outsiders, and preparing for the apocalypse with several thousand close friends, it's easier to fit in than to risk being exiled. After all, "what if" they're right? Isn't eternal exaltation worth a little sacrifice?"
"It's all that I knew all of my life. We had church school, meetings, projects, and the only people we associated with were fellow members. Total immersion - we didn't know to question, at least not when we were young. I know it seems crazy - almost impossible - but for too many, it's all too real."
ME: "Yeah, that sounds rough. What's 'eternal exaltation?' I have some interest in a cheeseburger but none at all in 'eternal exaltation.'"
"I'm going to get a cheeseburger. Do you want something to eat? But don't forget about 'eternal exaltation.' I want to get back to it."
I wave a server over.
BRENDA: "Thanks for the offer, but all this religion talk made me lose my appetite. I would love a Coke, though."
I give the order to the server. She leaves, returns with 2 cokes and leaves again.
ME: "It didn't make me lose my appetite. What's 'eternal
exaltation?'
ME: "Well, that's just really incredible. You remember so much more about this subject than I do. The subject is called a Catechism. Do you know any more of it?"
BRENDA:: "I could fill books with all the brainwashing I remember. I could practically compete with Warren Jeffs himself on quoting scriptures and giving revelations! I'm just glad for the last few years, while I've finally been able to start replacing some of that stuff with something more useful and interesting!"
ME: "Poor kid. You've really been through the wringer. How do you get to 'be perfect?'"
ME; "Yeah. I don't understand how
they could do this to people without threats. Did they tell you you were 'Crazy' if you couldn't see 'Jesus' and you should be in the 'Nut House?'"
The server returns with my cheeseburger and leaves again.
I wave a server over.
BRENDA: "Thanks for the offer, but all this religion talk made me lose my appetite. I would love a Coke, though."
I give the order to the server. She leaves, returns with 2 cokes and leaves again.
ME: "It didn't make me lose my appetite. What's 'eternal
exaltation?'
BRENDA: "Ah, it's being perfect, worthy to live with God. But it's a lot better scenario for men than it is for the women: men become gods and have thousands of wives. Through them millions of children are born - but only as spirits. They have to be born into a body on an earth and be tested and tried and proven worthy. As a god, you produce enough offspring to populate worlds, then create a world where mortals will live, and populate it with your spirit children."
"Naturally you live forever. Your few children that prove worthy become gods under you and bump you up. Those unworthy get varying degrees of happiness and are destined to be slaves to the gods for a millennia. It can be really hard, as an adult woman, to get very excited about your prospects, as you might imagine."
ME: "Well, that's just really incredible. You remember so much more about this subject than I do. The subject is called a Catechism. Do you know any more of it?"
BRENDA:: "I could fill books with all the brainwashing I remember. I could practically compete with Warren Jeffs himself on quoting scriptures and giving revelations! I'm just glad for the last few years, while I've finally been able to start replacing some of that stuff with something more useful and interesting!"
ME: "Poor kid. You've really been through the wringer. How do you get to 'be perfect?'"
BRENDA: "Complete, unquestioning obedience to the church leadership. "Rejoicing" in living polygamy. Giving all your money, time, devotion and labor to the church. Following the Book of Mormon, Bible and words of all the "prophets." Basically you give up your whole life, identity and individuality to become a cog in a machine."
"It's a lot better deal for men, but even for most of them it's not a nice life."
ME; "Yeah. I don't understand how
they could do this to people without threats. Did they tell you you were 'Crazy' if you couldn't see 'Jesus' and you should be in the 'Nut House?'"
The server returns with my cheeseburger and leaves again.
BRENDA: "No, not really. It was a lot more subtle and manipulative than that. It was being told that asking questions, hesitating to 'obey,' feeling sad, depressed, worried - anything but energetic, willing and happy - meant you weren't praying hard enough, not humble enough, somewhere you must have sinned. It is a serious guilt trip."
ME: "Yeah. Were your patents Mormons?"
ME; "So, when you were born, they were living in a commune?"
ME: "Did that change later on?"
ME: "What happened then?"
ME: "How many years did you spend there?"
ME: "What did you do when you got out?"
BRENDA: "My dad grew up Mormon, my mom joined the Mormons when she married him. Then, the year I was born, they joined a fundamentalist Mormon group that practices polygamy."
ME; "So, when you were born, they were living in a commune?"
Brenda: "No. We grew up in normal neighborhoods, though we weren't allowed to play with neighbors, we were home-schooled, we dressed like we were right out of Little House on the Prairie."
ME: "Did that change later on?"
BRENDA: "It got a lot more strict. We were required to stay more isolated. There was a part of the group in the city, and a small city belonging to the church in a remote desert area. After I was grown and married a call was made that all the city properties be sold and everyone move to the desert community. It was a lot more isolated from the outside world and we were strongly encouraged to leave as little as possible. This move stripped even more of our already limited freedoms away."
ME: "What happened then?"
BRENDA: "Over the next few years families started being torn apart, people kicked out for supposed "sins," and then they started the United Order. You had to be determined worthy by the leadership. Confessions were called for, strict rules about associating within the church - between those who were worthy and those who weren't. This was the 'straw that broke the camel's back' so to speak for me. I had dealt with more than I should have already and there was no way I would hand any of my kids over to the church!"
"To make a really long story short, we secretly made plans and escaped through the dark hours of night. It hasn't been an easy road, but it sure has been worth it."
ME: "How many years did you spend there?"
BRENDA: "The first 40 years of my life. Sometimes I feel so betrayed, I feel as though my life was stolen from me. But I'm determined to make up for it now, and hopefully make a difference for others. I'm sure it's all hard to imagine, having not actually lived through it. But I assure you, it's a living hell if ever one existed."
ME: "What did you do when you got out?"
BRENDA: "Well, to be honest, kinda freaked out for a while. Nearly everyone and everything that had been part of my entire life was gone. We were so alone, in debt, and still too close to the community for comfort. But we slowly found our wings: watching Netflix marathon-style - shows we had never seen, (sometimes, on the weekends, watching several seasons at once), adjusting to 'free' time without endless meetings and projects, very slowly braving out into a foreign world, and changing our hair and clothing styles....you know, it took me a whole year before I dared wear pants!
She stopped talking and a half nostalgic/half sad look came over her face.
"It almost seems surreal that those memories are really my life."
ME: "I suppose so. Who was with you?"
BRENDA: "My husband and our kids. That was it. We went from 1,000s of family and friends to eight of us. Those were pretty lonely times."
"I guess I never told you, but those who were faithful followers had been forbidden to talk to those who left. We were all taught to treat them as though they were dead - but that they would have been better off to be dead than to turn against God. By the act of moving away, we had instantly sealed our fate as "traitors to god" in the eyes of the church."
ME: "You have six kids?"
ME: "Oh sure. six are plenty. Are you still married?"
ME: "That's pretty impressive. At what point did you decide to be 'Godless?'"
MR: "What did you say to your husband and kids about the "New You?'"
ME: "What are you doing now?"
ME: "What's different about your approach?"
ME: "Most people don't care and never will. They're really so stupid they don't even know what you're talking about. I do, but I'm just one person. The lawyers don't care either. They're charging people $370 an hour and that's the source of their concern. Hollywood/TV give people causes they know will never be realized. They're raking in the bucks. Hope makes a good story."
ME: "You're doing okay without my help. Good Luck."
ME: "Sure. I'm interested in your story. Thanks. Are you presently in college?"
ME: "What do you think I do for a living?"
ME: "I'm a furniture mover. I go to a furniture warehouse in Brooklyn and catch trucks. Then I carry furniture all day long. I make $100 a day."
ME: "I don't know. What do you do?"
ME: "How do you manage college?"
BRENDA: "Yes. Actually a small number for someone in that group. My mom had 10, but I couldn't match that. I'm really glad now, 6 is a lot."
ME: "Oh sure. six are plenty. Are you still married?"
BRENDA: "I am, going on 23 years."
ME: "That's pretty impressive. At what point did you decide to be 'Godless?'"
BRENDA: "Once the reality settled in that everything I had believed to be true was a lie; that the men I trusted most were perverted and had betrayed my trust; and especially that even though I had been an extremely prayerful, honest and hard-working person "god" couldn't be bothered to answer my prayers for help. Then it all just came crumbling down around me and I finally felt free. Greatest feeling ever."
MR: "What did you say to your husband and kids about the "New You?'"
BRENDA: "We're all "new" people, and we've kind of changed together. I am definitely a different person, but so are they. Better for sure, but different."
ME: "What are you doing now?"
BRENDA: "In the church, education isn't seen as important. College is out of the question - especially for women. A few have been allowed to go into nursing, but that's all. I always dreamed of going to college, and now I can. I took a college course in the humanities and one of my professors suggested I would do well in studying law. My hope is to do something to help people, protect human rights and innocent victims of abuse, and such. Most lawyers don't know how to approach these cults, they don't know the questions to ask - I'd like to help change that."
ME: "What's different about your approach?"
BRENDA: "I think I have a different perspective. I know the way the leaders skirt issues and avoid giving real answers. I know that very few women would chose to live in polygamy if they weren't afraid of going to hell."
"I think there needs to be a different approach to talking to those who are victims - or suspected victims. The brainwashing goes so deep. I honestly don't care what consenting adults chose to do in their bedrooms, but it has to truly be consenting adults. Not women who live in fear and have been told all of their lives that they had to live polygamy, or else. Not 12 year-old girls marrying men old enough to be their grandfather. The threats are real, and these people won't tell the truth, they tell what the church has conditioned them to say."
"I would help them understand that these secretive, religious societies are breeding grounds for abuse, neglect, coercion and cruelty, not to mention tax evasion and welfare fraud."
"I just get so tired of nothing being done to prosecute the crimes that happens on a daily basis. There are so many laws being broken, so many people hurt, and something needs to be done."
ME: "Most people don't care and never will. They're really so stupid they don't even know what you're talking about. I do, but I'm just one person. The lawyers don't care either. They're charging people $370 an hour and that's the source of their concern. Hollywood/TV give people causes they know will never be realized. They're raking in the bucks. Hope makes a good story."
BRENDA: "Unfortunately, I think you're right. But, just like most people don't care, most lawyers are scum, at least there are a few people like me, you and several other amazing people I'm proud to call my friends, who DO care. I won't stop caring or working to make a difference. My belief is that the few CAN change things against the many - it's certainly not easy, but we can't just give up. I'm going to prove that a lawyer can be a good, caring person, too.
"You seem to be a very intelligent man, who talks to a lot of people, and I'm sure they come from different backgrounds and different walks of life - so, what are your thoughts on the best way to help people? How can I help people understand and care? I know I won't change the masses, but each person who cares is a power towards good."
ME: "You're doing okay without my help. Good Luck."
BRENDA: "Thank you for that vote of confidence. I'm probably going to need all the support I can get It was great to just have you hear me out."
ME: "Sure. I'm interested in your story. Thanks. Are you presently in college?"
BRENDA: "I start classes next month. I have 8 credits from my humanities class that I'm transferring, so I hope to be able to push hard and get my associates degree, then carry on to my Bachelor's. It's a big task to make it all happen, but I'm determined to do it."
ME: "What do you think I do for a living?"
BRENDA: "Honestly? I have no clue. You seem very professional and intelligent, but I won't embarrass myself by venturing a guess. What do you do
ME: "I'm a furniture mover. I go to a furniture warehouse in Brooklyn and catch trucks. Then I carry furniture all day long. I make $100 a day."
BRENDA: "Well, that's more money than I make in a day. But, coming from good ole Utah, those dollars probably go further. Now your turn, what do you think I do for a living now?"
ME: "I don't know. What do you do?"
BRENDA: "I do gardening. I used to love gardening, but when it's a 9-5, everyday job, it starts to lose its charm."
ME: "How do you manage college?"
Brenda: "It's not going to he easy. I'll have to change my schedule. Last winter I worked as a tailor/seamstress. That's a lot more flexible and if I find the right position I can make more money too."
MR:"Yeah."
ME: "I'm hungry. I'm going to get a steak. Do you want something to eat?"
ME: "Nothing comes to mind. Get anything you want."
ME: "I once dreamt of being a computer type. Someone, in a computer store, that repairs computers. But, as time went by, I realized they did it better than I would. That was my very last dream."
I wave a server over and give her the order. She retrieves 2 cokes and leaves.
ME: "Yeah. Dreams are nice. Do you dream of creating your own fashions?"
BRENDA: "I actually do! I've seen some fine workmanship on costumes from the opera and ballet and would love to try working in costuming for a while. I'd also like to try my hand at real fashion design - you know, not just polygamy dresses. I love figuring out patterns and bringing ideas to reality."
.
BRENDA: "I know I'll be crazy busy, but I hope it will make my life better. I'm tired oF living out of the bottom of the barrel."
ME: "I'm hungry. I'm going to get a steak. Do you want something to eat?"
BRENDA: "Sure, I'm pretty hungry. What do you suggest? Any little-known treasures served here?"
ME: "Nothing comes to mind. Get anything you want."
BRENDA: "I'll have a chef salad, and another Coke, please. Thanks.
"So, do you enjoy your work, or do you dream of doing something else, like I do?"
ME: "I once dreamt of being a computer type. Someone, in a computer store, that repairs computers. But, as time went by, I realized they did it better than I would. That was my very last dream."
I wave a server over and give her the order. She retrieves 2 cokes and leaves.
BRENDA: "I see. I guess after so many years of being held down I'm chock full of dreams! They're about all I've got, so I'm not ready to let go just yet. I'm determined to make at least a few of them come true - or at least have fun trying."
ME: "Yeah. Dreams are nice. Do you dream of creating your own fashions?"
BRENDA: "I actually do! I've seen some fine workmanship on costumes from the opera and ballet and would love to try working in costuming for a while. I'd also like to try my hand at real fashion design - you know, not just polygamy dresses. I love figuring out patterns and bringing ideas to reality."
.
ME: "Do you sketch your ideas?"
The server returns with my house salad and leaves.
BRENDA: "Yes, sometimes I sketch things, I draw plans for things on graph paper. I'd love to take a drawing class some day so my sketches will make more sense."
ME: "Maybe you have a future in fashions or sewing."
ME: "Yeah? Why don't you do that instead of gardening?"
ME: "Do you work with your friend?"
ME: "Oh. Well, it's a job."
The server returns with my house salad and leaves.
BRENDA: "Yes, sometimes I sketch things, I draw plans for things on graph paper. I'd love to take a drawing class some day so my sketches will make more sense."
ME: "Maybe you have a future in fashions or sewing."
BRENDA: "I could go for that. I think it could be an exciting career. I'm already a top-notch seamstress/tailor."
ME: "Yeah? Why don't you do that instead of gardening?"
BRENDA: "Gardening this season was actually a favor to a good friend - but it's not working out very well for me this year. I'm looking into a sewing job, it would be more flexible and not seasonal. I've done it before. Hopefully I can get something lined up soon."
ME: "Do you work with your friend?"
BREDA: " Yes, well, sometimes. I'm a crew boss and so is she, so we end up split up more often than not. That wasn't what we planned."
ME: "Oh. Well, it's a job."
The server returns with Brendas' Chef salad and my Steak diner.
ME: "Yeah. Working on furniture trucks is the best I can get."
BRENDA: "I don't mind physical work, at least it makes me tired enough to sleep good at night."
ME: "You know, no one ever says if we hadn't of kicked the Commies out OF Afghanistan we wouldn't have had to go to war there. Did you ever think of that?"
ME "After Afghanistan they went to war in Iraq and toppled Saddam Hussein. He had the nut religious types under control. Then they did the same thing in Libya where they toppled Gaddafi. It makes you wonder about the intellectual power of our Leadership."
ME: "Yeah. But my point is: What could the government be thinking of?"
ME: "If they hadn't of toppled those regimes in the first place, then they wouldn't have had to go back and fight a war."
ME: "And now we're in all these wars. Couldn't the Leadership have predicted this? You would think so. I would know that. Wouldn't you?"
ME: "Yeah, that's us, The Disposables."
ME: "That's life. How's your salad?"
ME: "I don't pay any attention to diet stuff. I just eat whatever I feel like. What was that you were saying about freedom of religion versus basic human rights? That was interesting."
ME:: "Talking about abuse: the Drug War is abusive. What are your thoughts on that?"
Brenda: "I say legalize drugs and then regulate them. Like what they're doing with marijuana in Colorado. You can absolutely still charge people for DUIs and such. That eliminates the black markets, the drug deals gone wrong, the questionable properties of synthetic drugs sold on the streets, and they can tax the sale of them and, ideally, use some of that revenue for education about drug use and maybe even fund help programs.
ME: "laws are always a really bad idea. The problem is sometimes there not. Where do you draw the line? Sentences are way to long. Then again, there are some really ugly types you just have to get rid of."
ME: "Nothing can be changed because of the conservatives."
BRENDA: "True. Work isn't supposed to be "fun" I guess. Hopefully I can get better work soon."
ME: "Yeah. Working on furniture trucks is the best I can get."
BRENDA: "I don't mind physical work, at least it makes me tired enough to sleep good at night."
ME: "You know, no one ever says if we hadn't of kicked the Commies out OF Afghanistan we wouldn't have had to go to war there. Did you ever think of that?"
BRENDA: "Honestly? No. I knew so little of world events, politics, real history - having grown up isolated inside a cult - I'm only now starting to learn about this world. I have a friend who was in the Marines, and he has told me what it was like going to Iraq. It's an ugly side of life.
"What's your opinion of it? I wouldn't mind learning a thing or two."
ME "After Afghanistan they went to war in Iraq and toppled Saddam Hussein. He had the nut religious types under control. Then they did the same thing in Libya where they toppled Gaddafi. It makes you wonder about the intellectual power of our Leadership."
BRENDA: "Too bad we don't take care of our own religious nut jobs. We'd be a lot better off."
ME: "Yeah. But my point is: What could the government be thinking of?"
BRENDA: "Now that's a question I've grappled with a LOT. The only conclusions I've reached were that the government doesn't mind religion keeping people controlled so they look away; the government doesn't want to have to deal with the costs of caring for thousands of women and children (in the case of polygamous cults) and let the sleeping dog lie, so to speak; and/or there's too many religious government leaders who don't want to set a precedent in actually doing something against extremist religions for fear that their own near and dear may come next."
"Until our society stops letting so-called religious freedom
triumph over human rights, nothing will really change."
"Until our society stops letting so-called religious freedom
triumph over human rights, nothing will really change."
ME: "If they hadn't of toppled those regimes in the first place, then they wouldn't have had to go back and fight a war."
BRENDA: "Ah, yes, I understand. And I agree. We often stick our noses into other people's business, where we don't really belong. It usually has more to do with our financial interests than moral standards. I think we should clean our own closets before we go around criticizing other people for their messes."
ME: "And now we're in all these wars. Couldn't the Leadership have predicted this? You would think so. I would know that. Wouldn't you?"
BRENDA: "But war is profitable. It's good business for some. And the leaders aren't concerned about the safety of the minions - we're disposable."
ME: "Yeah, that's us, The Disposables."
BRENDA: "Sad, but true. It was the same within the FLDS."
ME: "That's life. How's your salad?"
BRENDA: "Great. My salad is to help balance out my Coke, you know. I always try to eat healthy, but I've had a hard time giving up my Coke - it's my vice."
ME: "I don't pay any attention to diet stuff. I just eat whatever I feel like. What was that you were saying about freedom of religion versus basic human rights? That was interesting."
BRENDA: "I was referring to the abuses that happen so often in religion - especially the more secretive groups - like what I came from. To begin with, polygamy is illegal. It has been for over 150 years; it's a felony offense. But almost nothing is done to prosecute those who are known polygamists. Now we have tv shows that depict a polygamist lifestyle as something almost admirable. Or so I've heard, I can't stand to watch them.
"These polygamous groups are well-known for a variety of crimes, polygamy pretty much goes hand-in-hand with incest, molestation, underage marriage, shunned boys, welfare fraud, tax evasion and abuse of every name and nature. There are many who have broken free from the emotional chains that once held them in these cults, who are telling their experiences and they're all pretty much the same. Yet, often, when the question is asked as to why the government turns a blind eye and a deaf ear to these cries for help and protection of innocence, the response is that they don't want to go against anyone's rights of religious freedom. What about an individual's human rights? Religious rights can't include crimes against innocent people.
"Religious brainwashing works! I have witnessed scores of miserable lives, women and children in abusive situations where they believe they're 'happy.' I did. For a long time I remember thinking, 'This is how I choose to live, why won't people leave us alone?' But now I see. I never chose to live that lifestyle, thanks to a lifetime of indoctrination I truly believed it was my only choice - with the one exception of being damned in hell for eternity. That's no choice! As I started to comprehend what my life had been compared to what I believed it was - it was devastating. I felt so betrayed! I had lost the best years of my life to a lie, told by vile, immoral men.
"I am determined to make a difference, to change things for others. It's not an easy task, but I know there's a way for it to happen."
ME:: "Talking about abuse: the Drug War is abusive. What are your thoughts on that?"
Brenda: "I say legalize drugs and then regulate them. Like what they're doing with marijuana in Colorado. You can absolutely still charge people for DUIs and such. That eliminates the black markets, the drug deals gone wrong, the questionable properties of synthetic drugs sold on the streets, and they can tax the sale of them and, ideally, use some of that revenue for education about drug use and maybe even fund help programs.
"I don't see it as being much different than cigarettes and alcohol. And plenty of people get addicted to opiates through prescription drug use. It's a very similar situation to prohibition nearly a hundred years ago: making it illegal doesn't eliminate it. The demand is still there, and criminals are more than happy to take the opportunity to make a fortune on the black market. Having laws, rules and regulations can help prevent worse problems.
"I say we need fewer laws, so law-abiding people have their freedoms, but then take a much more low-tolerance approach to those who break the law. It's not the severity of the punishment but the surety of the punishment that makes a change in people's behavior."
"I say we need fewer laws, so law-abiding people have their freedoms, but then take a much more low-tolerance approach to those who break the law. It's not the severity of the punishment but the surety of the punishment that makes a change in people's behavior."
ME: "laws are always a really bad idea. The problem is sometimes there not. Where do you draw the line? Sentences are way to long. Then again, there are some really ugly types you just have to get rid of."
BRENDA:: "There has to be some laws - mostly to protect the innocent. I think the entire justice system needs a reevaluation and punishment needs to be more proportionate to the crime. If you get caught pirating software, or movies, for example, you'll likely get a stiffer sentence than most murderers. Yet, the harm was incomparable. In one example someone had their life stolen from them, in the other, someone lost a little piece of their huge profits. Those who hold the purse strings of the nation have too much influence in the laws and not enough accountability. Some proof of that is the phrase: 'I hope you can afford a good lawyer,' which implies, (and accurately in my opinion,) that justice is bought and sold. She is no longer blind."
ME: "Nothing can be changed because of the conservatives."
Brenda: "Probably not now anyway. I did listen to an encouraging report on public radio that said that a study showed that the biggest shift in religion is people leaving religion. According to this study in excess of 600,000 people a year. And most of those no longer believe in God. At that rate it may not be too long before changes for the better can come. I'm hoping so."
ME: "Yeah, okay. I'd like you to help me with my 'moron meter.' I want to put 'wrestling fans' at number 10, the very stupidest. What do you think of that?"
ME: "Yeah. Who goes in the 9th spot?"
ME: "What if I put sports in 8th place? What do you think of that?"
ME: "And Republicans. What do you think?"
BRENDA: "I couldn't agree more! Along with people who read the tabloids as if it was news!"
ME: "Yeah. Who goes in the 9th spot?"
BRENDA: "I know this will offend a lot of people, but I have to say those who choose to join a religion. It's one thing to be indoctrinated from birth, but to choose it as an adult? I don't get it."
ME: "What if I put sports in 8th place? What do you think of that?"
BRENDA: "I could agree with that! And the lot lizards at used car lots. Or maybe the people that get duped by them."
ME: "And Republicans. What do you think?"
BRENDA: "Yes! Especially the super-conservative ones who want abstinence only sex education, (which we all know doesn't work), denying people the power of knowledge of how their own bodies work so they could at least make better decisions, then deny any form of birth control, condemn abortions and then cut spending for single moms, welfare, etc. They're creating the problem. They aren't 'pro-life' they're pro-birth and then blame women for their bad choices. A special kind of stupid if you ask me."
ME: "Do you do any political activism?"
ME "It all looks so hopeless. I can't believe anything will ever change for the better."
ME: "There's really no one to talk to, about anything that's really relevant. because they're all insane. I think it would be a good thing for you to accept that we're living in a Giant Lunatic Asylum."
ME: "Oh, sure. They got you coming and going."
ME: "What are you trying to do?, Oh, I remember now. You're looking for people to help you accomplish something. What are you trying to accomplish? Whatever it is, it's impossible. You can never change anything. No one even knows what you're talking about. They don't understand change."
ME: "Okay. That's a deal."
Brenda: "I haven't, but I admit I've wondered about it. I need a way to learn more about how the political process works, because whatever I do I want to have it be the most effective approach. Politics has been such a foreign idea to me so far in my life. I have only voted once: the church leaders instructed us to vote and who to vote for or against. I do want to understand and ask questions and get involved though, I'm just unsure where to start.
"It probably won't surprise you too much to hear that I have some trust issues, and politicians don't have much of a reputation for being trustworthy."
"It probably won't surprise you too much to hear that I have some trust issues, and politicians don't have much of a reputation for being trustworthy."
ME "It all looks so hopeless. I can't believe anything will ever change for the better."
Brenda: "I have to say, that has pretty much been my view of it. Like deciding between Tweedle-Dee and Tweedle-Dum. But then I figured that as long as people don't act for sure things will change for the worse. If enough people fight for a change then there might be hope. I know my hopes may not be realized, but if I can make even a small change, or help even a few people understand why things need to change, then I'd sure like to."
ME: "There's really no one to talk to, about anything that's really relevant. because they're all insane. I think it would be a good thing for you to accept that we're living in a Giant Lunatic Asylum."
Brenda: "I finally escaped one crazy farm just to find out the whole world is a crazy farm - I had so hoped it would be different."
ME: "Oh, sure. They got you coming and going."
BRENDA: "Well, if I wasn't burned out on feeling hopeless, I might give up now, but I have to try. Crazy? Yes, I know."
ME: "What are you trying to do?, Oh, I remember now. You're looking for people to help you accomplish something. What are you trying to accomplish? Whatever it is, it's impossible. You can never change anything. No one even knows what you're talking about. They don't understand change."
BRENDA: "Tell you what: I'll check back with you in a few years and either you'll have to change your opinion or you can tell me 'I told you so!' "
ME: "Okay. That's a deal."
Brenda: "And now I have more motivation to succeed. So then I'm curious. Obviously you have no faith in the political system, where do you see things headed over the next, say, five years?"
ME: "We'll be where we are right now. They can never change anything."
ME: "But you can't find anyone that cares. Who have you found?"
BRENDA: "Mostly other ex-polygamist women, really. We finally got free and want to have freedom and peace in our 'new' world. We don't want people to have to keep suffering through these miserable experiences."
ME: "Well, maybe you could do something there. But you can't change anything else."
ME: "How much have you accomplished? How many people have you saved? How many people are in your organization?"
ME: "That's certainly impressive but you wont be changing anything else because people can't change. They do everything the way they've always done it. They're conformists, you can't change them."
ME: "I know perfectly well it's hopeless to try to change peoples thinking."
ME: "You're a rarity. Maybe you do have super powers and should wear a Wonder Woman costume."
ME: "I don't believe in witches."
ME: "What did you do when you saved those people from the Polies?"
ME: "It's like a spy story."
BRENDA: "But things have changed over the years - some for the better, some for the worse. Don't you think there's a chance that if enough people cared and tried that we could bring some positive change?"
ME: "But you can't find anyone that cares. Who have you found?"
BRENDA: "Mostly other ex-polygamist women, really. We finally got free and want to have freedom and peace in our 'new' world. We don't want people to have to keep suffering through these miserable experiences."
ME: "Well, maybe you could do something there. But you can't change anything else."
BRENDA: "It's a great place to start!"
ME: "How much have you accomplished? How many people have you saved? How many people are in your organization?"
Brenda: "So far I've saved eight. And I've helped dozens understand the freedom that's theirs for the taking. That they don't have to live in fear and guilt any longer. I'm not in any group or organization - yet. I may start one though."
ME: "That's certainly impressive but you wont be changing anything else because people can't change. They do everything the way they've always done it. They're conformists, you can't change them."
Brenda: "You know you're kind of a kill joy. Then what are your ambitions? Do you have hopes? I probably sound naive and simple to you - with my hopes."
ME: "I know perfectly well it's hopeless to try to change peoples thinking."
BRENDA: "I changed mine. Maybe I have super powers."
ME: "You're a rarity. Maybe you do have super powers and should wear a Wonder Woman costume."
Brenda: "I think I do have super powers. Maybe I'm really a witch!"
ME: "I don't believe in witches."
BRENDA: "Ah, that was going to be my next question. No magic either, then?"
ME: "What did you do when you saved those people from the Polies?"
Brenda: "Well, 7 of them were my family who I convinced to leave the church with me, and one was my daughter's friend. We gave her a home with us so she could get out and not be on her own - we were her family, and gave her support and stability."
ME: "It's like a spy story."
BRENDA: "It's strikingly similar to escaping from the mafia."
The server comes over and collects our plates.
ME: "What was it like to convince your family to leave?"
ME: "Was this your idea or your husbands?"
BRENDA: "It was mine first. I couldn't bear to live in a community that was so abusive and wrong. I needed a safe place to raise our kids. But he agreed pretty quickly."
ME: "How come you never ask me any questions?"
ME "I'm not married and I don't have any kids. Mainly, I come here for something to do."
ME: "I don't want a family. I'm content to just come here, talk to people and do nothing. I don't want anything out of life except to be left alone. The world doesn't want me for anything either. They want stupid things. We're living on 'Planet Stupid.'"
ME: "I talk to people because I don't have anything else to do. I'm not living vicariously. I have no emotion about it at all, Did you get to read books when you were with the 'Polies?' I suppose they were pretty strict about that."
ME: "Talking to people about their life is very much like reading a book. And I find it interesting. But I wouldn't use the word 'vicarious' to describe what I'm doing. I hardly know what it means anyway. It's one of those 'big' words that no one can figure out."
BRENDA: "For the younger ones it wasn't too hard, they wanted to go wherever I went. The older ones were harder. You have a lifetime of indoctrination to contend with. It took a lot of talking, then a lot of secretive planning to have somewhere to go and a way to sustain ourselves. Those were awfully hard day's: I'm glad they're in the past."
ME: "Was this your idea or your husbands?"
BRENDA: "It was mine first. I couldn't bear to live in a community that was so abusive and wrong. I needed a safe place to raise our kids. But he agreed pretty quickly."
ME: "How come you never ask me any questions?"
BRENDA: "I'm sorry, I guess I'm too caught up in the craziness of my own life, and I came from a place where asking personal questions wasn't really acceptable, and I guess I'm still getting past that.
"So tell me more about yourself - I know what you do for work, but are you married? Do you have kids? What do you enjoy?"
"So tell me more about yourself - I know what you do for work, but are you married? Do you have kids? What do you enjoy?"
ME "I'm not married and I don't have any kids. Mainly, I come here for something to do."
BRENDA: "Is that what you want in life, or are you hoping to find someone and make a family."
ME: "I don't want a family. I'm content to just come here, talk to people and do nothing. I don't want anything out of life except to be left alone. The world doesn't want me for anything either. They want stupid things. We're living on 'Planet Stupid.'"
BRENDA: "Do you feel like you enjoy experiencing life vicariously through others, so to speak? Kind of like how I love books, but you talk to people about their lives?"
ME: "I talk to people because I don't have anything else to do. I'm not living vicariously. I have no emotion about it at all, Did you get to read books when you were with the 'Polies?' I suppose they were pretty strict about that."
Brenda: " When I was younger I was allowed to read Nancy Drew books and Mormon themed story books, and of course scriptures and sermons.
"It sure seems like a lonely life - I want to live life to the fullest and I love people. Of course I also hate some people, too. But I definitely *feel*."
"It sure seems like a lonely life - I want to live life to the fullest and I love people. Of course I also hate some people, too. But I definitely *feel*."
ME: "Talking to people about their life is very much like reading a book. And I find it interesting. But I wouldn't use the word 'vicarious' to describe what I'm doing. I hardly know what it means anyway. It's one of those 'big' words that no one can figure out."
"Who do you Hate?"
Brenda: "People who lie, manipulate, and take advantage of others, abusers, religious leaders.....
"Do you think I'm a liar? Or do you believe my story?"
"Do you think I'm a liar? Or do you believe my story?"
ME: "I think you've been perfectly Honest"
ME: "It means living the life of someone else. Which, I suppose, you can do if you're even talking about someone else. You experience what they do. It's a word that's true but meaningless. It adds nothing to what's already been said."
ME "Do you want to know anything else about me?"
ME: "Some, both of my parents were church goers and made me go. When I was 13 I stoped believing but continued to go because they made me. When I was sixteen my parents divorced. I remained with my mother and stopped going. Both of them loved Jesus and Their Heavenly Father. They were pretty intense about it."
ME: "Yeah. I recognize what your talking about. They used God as an excuse to be rotten to their children."
ME: "People are a horrible mess."
BRENDA: "I used to, and I want to again. I love growing my own food and preserving it - the best food ever!"
"Did you have brothers or sisters growing up?"
ME: "Oh. You said you were still married. I don't think either one of them continued to believe in God. After I moved out I hardly ever saw them. As you said; 'I'm an outcast.'"
ME: "It was a good story. How was 9/11 a pivotal moment in your life?"
ME: "Okay"
ME: "I was in a restaurant having breakfast. I heard the television and people talking excitedly.
BRENDA: "I'm glad, because I have been perfectly honest with you. And, I honestly don't know what it means either, but it's a phrase I've heard often. As I said it I realized that I didn't know what it even means. I guess I should look it up before I use it again."
ME: "It means living the life of someone else. Which, I suppose, you can do if you're even talking about someone else. You experience what they do. It's a word that's true but meaningless. It adds nothing to what's already been said."
Brenda: "See, I learn something new every day."
ME "Do you want to know anything else about me?"
BRENDA: "Did you grow up in religion? I don't remember if you already told me."
ME: "Some, both of my parents were church goers and made me go. When I was 13 I stoped believing but continued to go because they made me. When I was sixteen my parents divorced. I remained with my mother and stopped going. Both of them loved Jesus and Their Heavenly Father. They were pretty intense about it."
BRENDA: "Did they act like people who love Jesus and God should? Too often I find people who are intense about religion are intense, in bad ways, especially toward their kids. My dad certainly was."
ME: "Yeah. I recognize what your talking about. They used God as an excuse to be rotten to their children."
Brenda: "Exactly. And racism, hatred, attitudes of superiority - I see the same theme play out over and over."
ME: "People are a horrible mess."
BRENDA: "They really are."
ME "Do you grow your own vegetables?"
BRENDA: "I used to, and I want to again. I love growing my own food and preserving it - the best food ever!"
"Did you have brothers or sisters growing up?"
ME "One of each."
BRENDA: "Do they share in your opinions of God and religion, or are you an outcast in their lives? I have almost no family in my life because of my beliefs - or lack of beliefs, I should say."
ME: "Oh. You said you were still married. I don't think either one of them continued to believe in God. After I moved out I hardly ever saw them. As you said; 'I'm an outcast.'"
BRenda: "Yes, I am still married, with 6 kids to boot. But when you come from a family with 3 mothers and a couple dozen siblings, and a community of families like yours that are all you ever knew and then find yourself an outcast with just your immediate family, it can be pretty lonely.
"I must seem strange to you, but we have come from different worlds. You probably find me somewhat self-centered - talking on and on about my experience, but hardly knowing how to ask you about yours. I lost nearly 40 years in a black hole of religion, control and abuse. It's the only world I know. I'm now a castaway in a foreign land, trying to find my way. I can't talk to you about movies, music, culture or political parties; I simply can't 'remember when' about world events - except 9/11, I remember that. It happened at a pivotal moment in my life. You could probably spend hours filling me in on your life and what life is really all about."
"I must seem strange to you, but we have come from different worlds. You probably find me somewhat self-centered - talking on and on about my experience, but hardly knowing how to ask you about yours. I lost nearly 40 years in a black hole of religion, control and abuse. It's the only world I know. I'm now a castaway in a foreign land, trying to find my way. I can't talk to you about movies, music, culture or political parties; I simply can't 'remember when' about world events - except 9/11, I remember that. It happened at a pivotal moment in my life. You could probably spend hours filling me in on your life and what life is really all about."
ME: "It was a good story. How was 9/11 a pivotal moment in your life?"
BRENDA: "It was at a pivotal moment. After a lifetime of fear of 'the great destructions' coming to kill all the 'wicked' people, the pressure had been increasing - we were told the end was near and we all had to move out of the city before God destroyed it. On September 11, I awoke to my radio alarm clock and heard the news: a plane had hit one of the towers. I listened in horrified silence - wide awake now - as the morning unfolded. I wondered if it was a terrible accident? Then the second plane hit. I was terrified. I prayed that God wouldn't destroy the city before my family and I could get out. Those were truly terrifying days. For what? For control.
"Yeah, my life makes an interesting story to listen to, but it made a pretty crappy life."
"Yeah, my life makes an interesting story to listen to, but it made a pretty crappy life."
ME: "Okay"
BRENDA: "Where were you when 9/11 happened?"
ME: "I was in a restaurant having breakfast. I heard the television and people talking excitedly.
So I finished breakfast, got up, went home and turned on the TV. That's when I heard 2 aircraft had plowed into the towers."
ME; "I was rased a Catholic but became a atheist at the age of 13. When I saw the building come
BRENDA: "Did your religion have apocalyptic teachings? What did you think when it happened?"
ME; "I was rased a Catholic but became a atheist at the age of 13. When I saw the building come
down I though a group of terrorists brought them down.I didn't think God was destroying the world."
ME: "Yeah."
ME: "I think I'd rather live by myself. If you live with someone you have to talk about everything that's going on. I'd rather not."
ME: "An apartment. I come here when I want to see people."
BRENDA: "I can hardly imagine living alone. I could watch an entire movie without interruption. Sounds pretty nice, actually. Do you like to cook, do you just come here for the company?"
ME: "I cook occasionally, not so often. And just one thing for one meal. I cook, eat and clean up really quick."
MW: "Not anymore. I used to. Now I just work and come here. I suppose you never got to read when you were a 'Poly' Girl?"
ME: "I liked a lot of them but my very favorite is "Catch 22" by Joseph Heller. The Hero, of the book, tells people about his sensible ideas and then all of them tell him the same thing: 'It won't work because of Catch 22.' He's a pilot of a B 25, in WW2. He doesn't want to fly because it's dangerous, he could get killed."
ME: "No, I didn't"
ME: "No. No college. l left High School as a Junior. I was never academically inclined. I was good in English and that's all. I was a Teachers Assistant in English."
ME: "No. I've never been outside of New York City. What are you going to Major in?"
ME: "I don't visit anything so I wouldn't know. I've walked across the Brooklyn Bridge several times. When I was younger I also wanted to study psychology. Later, I figured out people are ridiculous and don't wonder about them anymore. I'm a writer now. But just in a blog. I don't try to get published. Publishers are nice to people. They never tell them the truth."
BRENDA: "Consider yourself lucky. Do you live alone?"
ME: "Yeah."
BRENDA: "Sometimes I think that might be nice, but don't you ever get lonely? Don't you wish you had someone to share your life with?"
ME: "I think I'd rather live by myself. If you live with someone you have to talk about everything that's going on. I'd rather not."
Brenda: "True. I guess you can always invite people over when you want. Do you have an apartment or a house?"
ME: "An apartment. I come here when I want to see people."
BRENDA: "I can hardly imagine living alone. I could watch an entire movie without interruption. Sounds pretty nice, actually. Do you like to cook, do you just come here for the company?"
ME: "I cook occasionally, not so often. And just one thing for one meal. I cook, eat and clean up really quick."
Brenda: "I love to cook, but rarely have time any more. My spare time is usually absorbed in reading. Do you read much?"
MW: "Not anymore. I used to. Now I just work and come here. I suppose you never got to read when you were a 'Poly' Girl?"
Brenda: "Not much, at least not 'real' books. I love to read though, and books are an obsession for me. I don't have much time to read. But someday, when I do, I'll have plenty. I have hundreds of books of all kinds - mostly thrift store finds.
"For my literature class recently, I read 'To Kill a Mockingbird' for the first time. I LOVED it! What's your favorite book?"
"For my literature class recently, I read 'To Kill a Mockingbird' for the first time. I LOVED it! What's your favorite book?"
ME: "I liked a lot of them but my very favorite is "Catch 22" by Joseph Heller. The Hero, of the book, tells people about his sensible ideas and then all of them tell him the same thing: 'It won't work because of Catch 22.' He's a pilot of a B 25, in WW2. He doesn't want to fly because it's dangerous, he could get killed."
Brenda: "My dad was obsessed with WWII and one thing we did do was go to air shows and watch old war movies. I'd probably like that one. Though I never wanted to be in the military. My dad was born in 1944 and was incredibly racist. That's something I'm glad to have gotten past in my life.
"Did you serve in the military?"
"Did you serve in the military?"
ME: "No, I didn't"
Brenda: "My daughter's friend left the church with us and lived with us for a year, then she joined the Army. She's serving overseas now. It's disgusting to me how the recruiters work. She seems to enjoy it, though.
"How about college? Did you attend any college?"
"How about college? Did you attend any college?"
ME: "No. No college. l left High School as a Junior. I was never academically inclined. I was good in English and that's all. I was a Teachers Assistant in English."
BRENDA: "I graduated from the polygamous school - didn't do me much good, colleges won't accept it. I had to get my GED this summer. But now I'm ready!
"Have you travelled much? Not being tied down by family it seems like it would be easier."
"Have you travelled much? Not being tied down by family it seems like it would be easier."
ME: "No. I've never been outside of New York City. What are you going to Major in?"
BRENDA: " My Associates will be in psychology, then I plan to go to law school eventually. I had considered psychology for my total path, but I'm not sure I can deal with other people's trauma that much. I'm too much of an empath.
"I'm a little surprised to find out that I've traveled more than you - I figured everyone had traveled more than I have. At least you must know New York really well. Where are your most recommended spots to visit? This being my first time here."
"I'm a little surprised to find out that I've traveled more than you - I figured everyone had traveled more than I have. At least you must know New York really well. Where are your most recommended spots to visit? This being my first time here."
ME: "I don't visit anything so I wouldn't know. I've walked across the Brooklyn Bridge several times. When I was younger I also wanted to study psychology. Later, I figured out people are ridiculous and don't wonder about them anymore. I'm a writer now. But just in a blog. I don't try to get published. Publishers are nice to people. They never tell them the truth."
BRENDA: "I know a lot of people who suffer with PTSD. I figure if we can mess people up, there's got to be a way to undo it - help them live normal lives. But I'm not sure I'm able to do it.
"Do you enjoy blogging? I set up several blog sites but that's as far as I got. Is it hard to get going?"
"Do you enjoy blogging? I set up several blog sites but that's as far as I got. Is it hard to get going?"
ME: "I got going really good, PTSD is such a fraud. There's nothing wrong wIth these people. They like to pretend there is so they can get sympathy."
ME: "Maybe me."
ME; "I doubt if there's anyway to fix it. My recollections aren't in a sequence."
BRENDA: "Okay, then here's a big question: Do you see any way to help people learn to deal with stress and trauma in a more positive way?"
ME: "You haven't given me anything specific. But if you did I would probably say 'I don't know what you're talking about, I'm not you."
ME: "You can't. That's what I'm telling you. They don't understand and never will. They're stupid. You can't give them a brain."
ME: "Yeah. The 'stupids' run the show. If you're a 'stupid' 'The World is your Oyster.' They think everything's the way it's supposed to be. You can't tell them: 'It isn't.'"
ME: "Okay. I'll join the club. What's the name of the Club?"
ME: "I don't know. I like the name of the club. You picked a good one. We should exchange email addresses."
ME: "All I know is that I get hundreds of pageviews every day, The people never write me personally. I'll give you my email address and get yours."
Brenda: "Awesome. I have a lot of pictures from gardens I work in, and I thought I could post pictures and advice on cultivation, care, and so forth. My camera got broken and I just take pictures with my phone now, but it does ok. Do you like doing photography?"
Brenda: "Well, we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. Though I believe there are people who 'fake' it, there are many others for whom it's very real. I suffer from it to a degree - I'm fine most of the time, but I definitely have triggers. Long-term traumatic experiences absolutely leave their mark. The wrong circumstances trigger anxiety and make me terrified. It's my uncontrollable response, because of past trauma. But I believe there must be a way to undo those associations - I sure hope so, anyway.
"Have you ever personally known anyone who suffered from it?"
"Have you ever personally known anyone who suffered from it?"
ME: "Maybe me."
BRENDA: "I have never used it for sympathy or attention - quite the opposite. I'd do anything to get past it and adjust to a normal life. No amount of sympathy could ever make up for the horrible experience of PTSD. The only people who would fake it are people who are too lazy to work or attention whores.
"Do you think there's a way to 'fix' it? How do you deal with it when anxiety attacks you?"
"Do you think there's a way to 'fix' it? How do you deal with it when anxiety attacks you?"
ME; "I doubt if there's anyway to fix it. My recollections aren't in a sequence."
BRENDA: "Okay, then here's a big question: Do you see any way to help people learn to deal with stress and trauma in a more positive way?"
ME: "You haven't given me anything specific. But if you did I would probably say 'I don't know what you're talking about, I'm not you."
BRENDA: "You don't have to be me. You don't have to have lived my life. As humans I believe we all share many of the same reactions to situations at least. We understand the feelings of fear, guilt and shame. My question is, in general: what can we do to help people learn to deal with these issues better? My opinion is that these issues are becoming more of a problem because our children aren't being nurtured; they don't feel safe and confident in their own skins. But how can I help affect a shift in attitudes among adults? I see adults treating children in the most horrid and demeaning ways - but how do I help people see the damage it is doing?"
ME: "You can't. That's what I'm telling you. They don't understand and never will. They're stupid. You can't give them a brain."
Brenda: "I'm not stupid. I have a brain - and I use it. So what makes me different? Why don't other people do the same? If what you say is true, then it really sucks to not be stupid. The level of stupidity I'm surrounded by actually hurts!"
ME: "Yeah. The 'stupids' run the show. If you're a 'stupid' 'The World is your Oyster.' They think everything's the way it's supposed to be. You can't tell them: 'It isn't.'"
BRENDA: "That's downright depressing. I'm going to have to find a different planet to live on.
Maybe there's a way for those of us with brains to find each other - like some kind of club?"
Maybe there's a way for those of us with brains to find each other - like some kind of club?"
ME: "Okay. I'll join the club. What's the name of the Club?"
BRENDA: "I'll start one of my own, and call it the 'Don't be an Ignorant Asshole' club. We'll read literature and discuss ideas about how society could run more smoothly if people used their brains. And we'd eat excellent food.
"Do you think I will meet people who are intelligent and engaged in college? Not all, by any means, but maybe a few?"
"Do you think I will meet people who are intelligent and engaged in college? Not all, by any means, but maybe a few?"
ME: "I don't know. I like the name of the club. You picked a good one. We should exchange email addresses."
BRENDA: "Good idea. You'll get the first official email invitation to my club.
"Maybe I'll start a blog for it, too. I have a couple of blog pages started, (one for gardening, one for sewing, another for fighting for freedom from religious beliefs ) but haven't published any content. Is it hard to get started? Do you have many consistent readers?"
"Maybe I'll start a blog for it, too. I have a couple of blog pages started, (one for gardening, one for sewing, another for fighting for freedom from religious beliefs ) but haven't published any content. Is it hard to get started? Do you have many consistent readers?"
ME: "All I know is that I get hundreds of pageviews every day, The people never write me personally. I'll give you my email address and get yours."
Brenda: "Awesome. I have a lot of pictures from gardens I work in, and I thought I could post pictures and advice on cultivation, care, and so forth. My camera got broken and I just take pictures with my phone now, but it does ok. Do you like doing photography?"
I get out a notebook and pen and we exchange email addresses.
ME; "I used to, I don't anymore. Where did you go to get a blog? I'm on BlogSpot."
Brenda: "Through WordPress. I figured if nothing else I would reserve the page names I wanted. I did some online classes through Lynda.com that teach you how. I also did some classes on the Adobe Suite - you know, Photoshop, Illustrator - anyway, I worked on designing artwork for it. I really enjoy that kind of stuff. That's some powerful software, if I had a more powerful computer it would have been more fun.
"Another thing I started to learn online was Latin. I'd love to learn more - it's a lot easier than English - each letter makes a sound and their grammatical rules make more sense. Did you ever learn another language?"
ME; "Spanish in High School. I could write it but not speak it."
ME: "No. You could create a Facebook group too. And you could advertise there."
ME: "Yes, and continue to do so. That's how I get hundreds of pageviews every day. I belong to over 100 Facebook groups."
ME: "I have another one. It's about a Spaceship."
ME: "No, It's about a power convertor that works in space. It's my own invention."
ME: "I did figure it out for real. No one cares."
Brenda: "Through WordPress. I figured if nothing else I would reserve the page names I wanted. I did some online classes through Lynda.com that teach you how. I also did some classes on the Adobe Suite - you know, Photoshop, Illustrator - anyway, I worked on designing artwork for it. I really enjoy that kind of stuff. That's some powerful software, if I had a more powerful computer it would have been more fun.
"Another thing I started to learn online was Latin. I'd love to learn more - it's a lot easier than English - each letter makes a sound and their grammatical rules make more sense. Did you ever learn another language?"
ME; "Spanish in High School. I could write it but not speak it."
BRENDA: "I plan to take a Spanish class in college. Then I can communicate with the other half of the population at home. Or at least know what they're saying about me. Then, I'd like to learn Italian. Do you remember much Spanish?"
ME: "No. You could create a Facebook group too. And you could advertise there."
BRENDA: "That's a good idea, and easy to do. Did you advertise your blog to get it going?"
ME: "Yes, and continue to do so. That's how I get hundreds of pageviews every day. I belong to over 100 Facebook groups."
BRENDA: "Wow. I belong to quite a few groups, but not that many. Well, I have some ideas now to work from. Thanks.
"Do you do just the one blog, or do you have others?"
"Do you do just the one blog, or do you have others?"
ME: "I have another one. It's about a Spaceship."
BRENDA: "That could be fun. Does it include alien species that you get to invent?"
ME: "No, It's about a power convertor that works in space. It's my own invention."
Brenda: "If only you could figure it out for real, you would never have to work again! Do you like science fiction?"
ME: "I did figure it out for real. No one cares."
BRENDA: "Why not?! It sounds like an amazing invention."
ME; "Because we're living in A Giant Lunatic Asylum."
ME: "Okay, that's a deal."
ME; "The power source is a nuclear engine that can run for years on the same fuel. So the speed and range of the aircraft is unlimited. Kind of. It will explode if it reaches the speed of light.
Brenda: " Ah, yes. We already established that, huh? Well, maybe we can drum up support to launch it in my new group of intelligent people, You know, the 'Don't be an Ignorant Asshole' group. I've got to get that set up."
ME: "Okay, that's a deal."
BRENDA: "Tell me a little bit about this converter. How would you get it into space? How does it work - in general terms of course, I'm no rocket scientist!"
ME; "The power source is a nuclear engine that can run for years on the same fuel. So the speed and range of the aircraft is unlimited. Kind of. It will explode if it reaches the speed of light.
The power converter is a fluid filled disc with a propeller and baffles inside."
ME: "I don't play anything."
ME: "No. I haven't done that since I was a kid."
ME: "That's pretty neat. I can't capture what I want on film because it's all ideas, not something to look at. I'm very interested in the group you said you want to create. When will you get started on it? When you go home? A month from now?"
ME: "I have no trouble at all in presenting my ideas. When will you have something ready and shoot me an invite?"
ME: "That's great. I look forward to it."
ME: "Yeah, same here."
Brenda: "Well, hey, I'm here for a few more days and I'll likely stop in here again for a bite. Maybe we'll chat again. Otherwise I'll definitely send you an email to my group as soon as it's up."
thegreenbeanlady@gmail.com
ME: "Okay."
It's nighttime. A few months later. I'm back at the same diner and sitting at the counter. Brenda walks in and takes the seat next to me.
BRENDA: "Hi again."
ME: "Hi. I'm trying to write a comedy about people Loving Jesus."
I laugh a little.
"Do you have any comical ideas about that?"
ME; "An agnostic or atheist?"
A server comes over. Brenda orders coffee. The server pours it and leaves.
ME: "I wish I could find something funny about religion. About people loving, loving and loving Jesus. Do you think that's funny?"
BRENDA: "It is funny, in a crazy way - funny that they'll devote their lives to loving Jesus while hating everyone who disagrees with them, starting wars, and alienating their own family members."
ME; "I have to find something funny about them.. Like them saying, Jesus is so beautiful, I love him so much, I want to be with Him and be loved by Him. What do you think they do that's funny? Really funny, laugh funny."
BRENDA: "Sounds impressive. And kind of 'Star Trek' like. I LOVE that kind of stuff. Technology, science, space....I definitely believe there are far better ways of doing things. I hope to see advances in technology in my lifetime - besides just in gaming and entertainment."
ME: "I don't play anything."
BRENDA: "Neither do I. My boys do, though. I don't have enough free time to even try it. I'd much rather spend time doing creative stuff. Do you have hobbies? I'm wanting to learn to paint and draw."
ME: "No. I haven't done that since I was a kid."
BRENDA: "I want to try a little bit of everything. I was accepted into a class on documentary film making and I'm excited to make a film. I plan to use this opportunity to bring awareness to the abuses in polygamy."
ME: "That's pretty neat. I can't capture what I want on film because it's all ideas, not something to look at. I'm very interested in the group you said you want to create. When will you get started on it? When you go home? A month from now?"
BRENDA: " Oh no, I won't wait that long. When I get home I'll definitely get going on it. I've got a lot of ideas chasing around in my little ole brain for it. I'll have to make a few notes and sketches when I'm back to my room.
"I totally understand what you mean about presenting ideas, or the difficulty of presenting them, anyway. But I hope I can get people's attention, grab them by their feelings and drag them through some of those experiences. Basically give them a more personal experience and connection so they'll be motivated to help make a change.
"You blog, so have you ever tried writing your ideas? I find I can put ideas and feelings into words on paper, so to speak, than verbally."
"I totally understand what you mean about presenting ideas, or the difficulty of presenting them, anyway. But I hope I can get people's attention, grab them by their feelings and drag them through some of those experiences. Basically give them a more personal experience and connection so they'll be motivated to help make a change.
"You blog, so have you ever tried writing your ideas? I find I can put ideas and feelings into words on paper, so to speak, than verbally."
ME: "I have no trouble at all in presenting my ideas. When will you have something ready and shoot me an invite?"
BRENDA: "The sooner I get out of here I'm going to get started. Once I get ideas swirling around I'm always anxious to get them down somehow and work on developing them."
ME: "That's great. I look forward to it."
BRENDA: "I look forward to it too and I'll appreciate your input when I get it done, I really ought to get going soon. But it's been fascinating talking to you."
ME: "Yeah, same here."
Brenda: "Well, hey, I'm here for a few more days and I'll likely stop in here again for a bite. Maybe we'll chat again. Otherwise I'll definitely send you an email to my group as soon as it's up."
thegreenbeanlady@gmail.com
ME: "Okay."
BRENDA: "It was great meeting you, Richard. Hopefully we'll see each other again."
ME: "Nice to meet you too."
BRFNDA: "Alrighty, I've got a busy day tomorrow so I'm going to head out, goodnight, and thanks for a pleasant evening."
ME: "Same here. Good night."
She gets up and leaves. It's getting light outside. I'm going home. But first I'll get breakfast. I wave a server over and order an omelet, with everything. After awhile she brings it to me. I eat it and leave.
End of Episode 20
Episode 21
Cast......In order of appearance.
Richard..zxvytuutyvxz@yahoo.com
BRFNDA: "Alrighty, I've got a busy day tomorrow so I'm going to head out, goodnight, and thanks for a pleasant evening."
ME: "Same here. Good night."
She gets up and leaves. It's getting light outside. I'm going home. But first I'll get breakfast. I wave a server over and order an omelet, with everything. After awhile she brings it to me. I eat it and leave.
End of Episode 20
Episode 21
Cast......In order of appearance.
Richard..zxvytuutyvxz@yahoo.com
It's nighttime. A few months later. I'm back at the same diner and sitting at the counter. Brenda walks in and takes the seat next to me.
BRENDA: "Hi again."
ME: "Hi. I'm trying to write a comedy about people Loving Jesus."
I laugh a little.
"Do you have any comical ideas about that?"
BRENDA; "I find the subject funny in and of itself, personally - worshipping a zombie. But I'm what might be called a 'born again agnostic.' I had enough religion in my first 40 years to last several lifetimes."
ME; "An agnostic or atheist?"
A server comes over. Brenda orders coffee. The server pours it and leaves.
BRENDA; "I think agnostic, but I could probably go either way. I can see there's some power that makes things work, maybe just nature. I have seen and felt evil and good. I do know that God either doesn't exist or at least doesn't get involved in people's daily lives - he doesn't answer prayers."
ME: "I wish I could find something funny about religion. About people loving, loving and loving Jesus. Do you think that's funny?"
BRENDA: "It is funny, in a crazy way - funny that they'll devote their lives to loving Jesus while hating everyone who disagrees with them, starting wars, and alienating their own family members."
ME; "I have to find something funny about them.. Like them saying, Jesus is so beautiful, I love him so much, I want to be with Him and be loved by Him. What do you think they do that's funny? Really funny, laugh funny."
BRENDA: "The logic behind their worship is laughable: original sin was required, by god, then God cursed us because of it, then impregnated a young girl with himself as the offspring to then be sacrificed as a blood atonement for the sin he required in the first place. Circular logic at best. It always makes me laugh to see people all 'caught up in the spirit' praising Jesus when they find their lost car keys or some such trivial thing. Too bad his power isn't going toward ending hunger."
ME: "Yeah, but I'm not laughing. Give me something that makes me laugh. I can't think of anything."
ME: "Okay. Stupid, crazy things are supposed to be humerus, aren't they? So why can't we laugh at them? You know."
ME: "I'm not. How would I laugh at them?"
ME: "I'm looking for something different and I'm having a hard time explaining that."
BRENDA; "Well, can you tell me something about what you're thinking, maybe we could brainstorm together. Sometimes it helps to just bounce ideas off someone else."
ME: "I guess. Something about the idiot agony they experience when they talk about Jesus and their Heavenly Father. I always laugh at them."
ME; "Yeah. We can't find anything funny. What do you do? work, go to school, stay at home?"
ME; "What are you studying?"
ME; "I'm a truck helper, mainly on furniture vans. It pays good, $12 an hour."
ME: "No. I didn't graduate High School. I wanted to study psychology too. I studied it on my own and discovered almost everyone is crazy. Go figure. We're living on The Planet of the Damned. It's not a pretty picture."
ME: "But the media never says that. They're supposed to be reporting the news."
ME: "That's a good description of them. I know enough about them not to believe anything they say. They communicate to and for stupid people. And refer to their critics as "Ranters.'"
ME: "Oh, I just watch the news. Do you want to be a psychologist?"
ME; "Yeah. That could be interesting."
ME: "All the crazies are happy and confident. And why not? They have every thing the rest of us have nothing."
ME: "Facts are nice. How long will it take you to get a degree?"
ME "I don't argue about God from that perspective. I merely maintain that no one's ever seen Him so He doesn't exist. Also, what do we need Him for?"
ME: "How does your argument go? i.e. religious freedom versus freedom for the rest of us."
ME: "Do you have an example of what you're talking about?"
ME: "It's unfortunate there're people who can make us say "in God we Trust.'"
ME: "You lost me. What are 'cherry-picked standards?'"
BRENDA: "For instance focusing on a few verses in the Bible that talk against homosexuality and using that strictly, but ignoring verses against adultery, coveting, gluttony, greed, etc. They cherry pick which verses to adhere to without exception, and wink at others with the excuse that they weren't meant to be taken literally or that they applied then but times are different now."
ME: "You're right that they want us all to lead 'Bibical' lives. There should be some legal way to stop them. Marriage is 'Biblical.'" The 'States' should stop issuing marriage licenses."
BRENDA: "I personally don't find religion to be a laughing matter, it is the root of war, hatred and oppression. Though picturing Jesus in more modern, non-traditional roles and situations can be funny. Also, I believe that if Jesus lived today he would likely be treated very poorly by those who call themselves "Christian."
ME: "Okay. Stupid, crazy things are supposed to be humerus, aren't they? So why can't we laugh at them? You know."
BRENDA: "I think you can laugh at them, as long as you aren't worried about offending people."
ME: "I'm not. How would I laugh at them?"
BRENDA: "Bringing out the absurdity of worshipping a being and a book that have been revised and rewritten many times, and then cherry picking their own beliefs at that. They'll persecute gays and ignore adultery, for example."
ME: "I'm looking for something different and I'm having a hard time explaining that."
BRENDA; "Well, can you tell me something about what you're thinking, maybe we could brainstorm together. Sometimes it helps to just bounce ideas off someone else."
ME: "I guess. Something about the idiot agony they experience when they talk about Jesus and their Heavenly Father. I always laugh at them."
BRENDA: "No more effective than talking to a brick wall."
ME; "Yeah. We can't find anything funny. What do you do? work, go to school, stay at home?"
BRENDA; "I'm currently in college - better late than never! - and I also work. I have a part-time job doing fine gardening and one doing alterations and tailoring. I'm also dabbling in costume design."
ME; "What are you studying?"
BRENDA; "I'm majoring in psychology for my associates degree, but I'm mostly doing my general education requirements right now. I am in an introductory psychology class, and it's really fascinating.
"What do you do?"
ME; "I'm a truck helper, mainly on furniture vans. It pays good, $12 an hour."
BRENDA: "Nice. Sounds like too much hard physical work for me.
"Did you go to college?"
ME: "No. I didn't graduate High School. I wanted to study psychology too. I studied it on my own and discovered almost everyone is crazy. Go figure. We're living on The Planet of the Damned. It's not a pretty picture."
BRENDA: "Sadly, I'd have to agree. People are crazy."
ME: "But the media never says that. They're supposed to be reporting the news."
BRENDA: "Anyone with a fraction of a brain can see that the media is simply a tool used by the political powers. It carefully feeds us whatever is in the best interest of the powers that be. It turns us against each other, fills us with fear, and distracts us from the real issues and their solutions. It tells us how to feel, what to think on issues, and then fills our time with hollow entertainment that generally either serves to keep us busy dreaming about things we'll never accomplish, or feeling superior to those shown as less intelligent."
ME: "That's a good description of them. I know enough about them not to believe anything they say. They communicate to and for stupid people. And refer to their critics as "Ranters.'"
BRENDA: "I don't watch the news, or TV at all. I look into the things I'm curious about, and research issues to make my decisions."
ME: "Oh, I just watch the news. Do you want to be a psychologist?"
BRENDA: "I'm considering it. I'd love to help people get past things like PTSD. I'm just not sure I can deal with listening to people's troubles. I'm too empathetic."
ME; "Yeah. That could be interesting."
BRENDA: "I had a friend tell me about a new approach, studying positive psychology. What the factors are that are involved when people are well-adjusted, happy and confident. That sounds fascinating."
ME: "All the crazies are happy and confident. And why not? They have every thing the rest of us have nothing."
BRENDA: "Well, for me, I'd rather use my brain, even if it removes my rose-colored glasses. I love to learn, but I want facts."
ME: "Facts are nice. How long will it take you to get a degree?"
BRENDA: "I'll have my associates in two years. Right now I'm working on writing a paper for one of my classes. I chose to write about so-called religious freedom and how it is used to deny non-religious people their freedom. What's your opinion on that?"
ME "I don't argue about God from that perspective. I merely maintain that no one's ever seen Him so He doesn't exist. Also, what do we need Him for?"
BRENDA: "I neither need nor want him, which is why I am unhappy about religious people trying to force their rules on the rest of us."
ME: "How does your argument go? i.e. religious freedom versus freedom for the rest of us."
BRENDA: "The simple version is that religion belongs in people's homes and churches, and has no place in government, businesses and schools. Laws should be to protect innocent people, but certainly not based on biblical values."
ME: "Do you have an example of what you're talking about?"
BRENDA: "Kim Davis, the county clerk who refused to issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples based on her Christian beliefs, in total disregard of the law. There are several law enforcement agencies who are putting 'In God We Trust' decals on their vehicles. Did you know that 'In God We Trust' was added to our currency in the 1950s? As was 'under God' added to the pledge of allegiance in 1954. Why? Because of fears that 'atheist communists' were going to destroy the country so they were bringing the country 'back to God.'
"I've had this discussion with several Christians trying to explain that as they, as the current majority, put religion where it doesn't belong and try to legislate compliance to religious beliefs. It's setting a dangerous precedent. What happens when Christians are no longer the majority and we're all forced to bow to Sharia law for instance, under the legal precedent they pushed for? Now I personally don't like being ruled over by religion of any kind, but for those who want to follow a religion they would be wise to keep it where it belongs. It's in the best interest of all of us."
"I've had this discussion with several Christians trying to explain that as they, as the current majority, put religion where it doesn't belong and try to legislate compliance to religious beliefs. It's setting a dangerous precedent. What happens when Christians are no longer the majority and we're all forced to bow to Sharia law for instance, under the legal precedent they pushed for? Now I personally don't like being ruled over by religion of any kind, but for those who want to follow a religion they would be wise to keep it where it belongs. It's in the best interest of all of us."
ME: "It's unfortunate there're people who can make us say "in God we Trust.'"
BRENDA: "It's more unfortunate that laws are being made to force people to comply to biblical standards - of course cherry-picked standards."
ME: "You lost me. What are 'cherry-picked standards?'"
BRENDA: "For instance focusing on a few verses in the Bible that talk against homosexuality and using that strictly, but ignoring verses against adultery, coveting, gluttony, greed, etc. They cherry pick which verses to adhere to without exception, and wink at others with the excuse that they weren't meant to be taken literally or that they applied then but times are different now."
ME: "You're right that they want us all to lead 'Bibical' lives. There should be some legal way to stop them. Marriage is 'Biblical.'" The 'States' should stop issuing marriage licenses."
"The word marriage is never used in the Bible. But are you saying that the concept of pairing up and making commitments between people is only a Christian idea? Did it not exist otherwise? I find that hard to imagine.
"Besides, in today's world, where a marriage is a legal, civil contract with financial implications, it makes sense for the government to issue licenses. Those licenses should be available to all consenting adult couples. You can always get a religious ceremonial marriage to fill your religious beliefs. When I got married we got a marriage license at the city building and then had our religious ceremony in the evening. At that time we believed that the religious ceremony was the one that really mattered, the civil marriage was what gave us a financial advantage - tax breaks, it was easier to put both our names on our children's birth certificates, we had the legal right to make decisions for each other in emergencies, etc."
ME: "There's no real reason why people would want to live together. The idea was created by religious types."
ME: "Well, the idea of a special ceremony is 'Biblical.'"
ME: "Yeah, but it comes from a ceremony. There's no reason for a contract."
ME: "I can only repeat I don't think a contract is necessary."
ME: "What else do they do that's 'Biblical?' And an imposition on the rest of us?"
ME: "I don't know how they can get away with this. It would be simple enough to declare these people as 'unfit parents' and take the kids away from them. This is really crazy."
ME: "That's too bad but there's nothing we can do about it."
ME: "I think you'll be disappointed in the number of 'Stand Up' people you find. Are you familiar at all with the specifics of these cases? "
ME: "What did the Supreme court say about these cases? And what are the exceptions you're talking about?"
ME: "I don't think the States could make a law like that. Not after the Supreme Court said what it did about the matter."
ME: "Let's talk about something else. Why does the Government have to spend all this money on the military. No one wants to invade us or bomb us. What would be the point? I think we should do away with our Navy and Air Force. And most of our Army. What do you think about that?"
ME: "I don't see why we have to worry about other countries. Let them do what ever they want to."
ME: "Did you ever wonder how all these millionaires got their money? What could someone do to make all that money?"
BRENDA: "I may be crazy, but I think there are reasons. Maybe that's just leftover thoughts from when I used to be religious, but I don't think so."
ME: "Well, the idea of a special ceremony is 'Biblical.'"
BRENDA: "Perhaps, but getting a marriage license doesn't involve a special ceremony, it's simply a legal contract."
ME: "Yeah, but it comes from a ceremony. There's no reason for a contract."
BRENDA: "With the way our society is set up now, a contract has definite benefits. It's a civil agreement. Religious ceremony is making moral promises with God."
ME: "I can only repeat I don't think a contract is necessary."
BRENDA: "That's fine. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I see things differently."
ME: "What else do they do that's 'Biblical?' And an imposition on the rest of us?"
BRENDA: "In most states there are laws giving exemptions for religious beliefs, even not allowing civil or criminal prosecution of parents whose children die from what are often easily treatable conditions. Why? Because the treatment would go against the parents' religious beliefs. Many don't get their children vaccinated, not only opening themselves up to preventable diseases, but in some cases spreading disease to those around them.
"How 'godly' is it to deny medical care to innocent little children? They have no voice, so they suffer and die as martyrs to their parents' religious beliefs. Then it is rejoiced that 'god's will was done.' "
ME: "I don't know how they can get away with this. It would be simple enough to declare these people as 'unfit parents' and take the kids away from them. This is really crazy."
BRENDA: "There are laws protecting them. I actually learned just today that a dozen children have died within three years in Idaho, all part of a religion that doesn't believe in medical care. All from treatable conditions. And the coroner doesn't even do an autopsy when children die from lack of medical care for religious reasons.
"The Supreme Court has made rulings, but states have used states rights to create exemptions. Boils my blood! I have six kids and I can't imagine letting them be hurt for 'God'!"
ME: "That's too bad but there's nothing we can do about it."
BRENDA: "Isn't there? The lawmakers in this country want power and they want to he elected. If enough people would stand up for the protection of children it would change. It may take time, but we need to at least be moving in that direction."
ME: "I think you'll be disappointed in the number of 'Stand Up' people you find. Are you familiar at all with the specifics of these cases? "
BRENDA: "I read a little bit about some of them, but I haven't had a chance to do real research yet. One piece I read was written by a pediatrician, and she talked about how difficult it was for her to see children that she knew could be helped, but the parents wouldn't allow treatment."
ME: "What did the Supreme court say about these cases? And what are the exceptions you're talking about?"
BRENDA" "The Supreme Court made a ruling, I don't recall the year, but it basically said that if adults want to die as martyrs for their religion that was their business, but they aren't allowed to choose for their children to do so. But states have individually made exemptions where parents can't be prosecuted for the death of a child from withholding medical care if it was because of the parents religious beliefs. Maybe no one has tried to push these cases to the Supreme court? I honestly don't understand how it all works."
ME: "I don't think the States could make a law like that. Not after the Supreme Court said what it did about the matter."
BRENDA: "Yeah, it doesn't make sense to me either. But, like I said, I really don't understand it all. I'd love to talk to someone who could explain it."
ME: "Let's talk about something else. Why does the Government have to spend all this money on the military. No one wants to invade us or bomb us. What would be the point? I think we should do away with our Navy and Air Force. And most of our Army. What do you think about that?"
BRENDA : "I agree. I think keeping our money and manpower inside and creating a strong nation would be ideal. Once we can take care of all of our own citizens, then we can worry about other countries."
ME: "I don't see why we have to worry about other countries. Let them do what ever they want to."
BRENDA: "I think they might come to more lasting solutions, and very likely with less loss of life than when our military gets involved."
ME: "Did you ever wonder how all these millionaires got their money? What could someone do to make all that money?"
BRENDA: "I know that most millionaires came into their money by, if not outright dishonest means then at least by unethical means. Practically stealing it off the backs of the working poor. Those who do the hard, menial labor can hardly survive while their bosses live like kings."